1971 trans am....should i or shouldnt i??

[EARNED MY WINGS]

Hello, new to this site and looking for some input. Heres my situation. 1971 purchased a lucerne blue 71 ta with correct motor and 4 speed ,non a/c car, pretty much complete minus a few items whic are easily availible, problem is the body is shot, and i mean shot. Im not new to the car sceen and restored my share of rides, this car is beyond repair due to rust. I could purchase every piece of sheetmetal available currently andwould still need to fab patches and pieces to finish, or.......................i got a line on a rock solid shell from a 1973 that dont need a bit of metal work and just a few doordings to fix for a complete transformation. I personally would rather have the good ol' generals sheetmetal and factory spotwelds rather than a pieced together part by part mig/spot welded that would take me years to do with my current family situation but my friends and family are leaning against my idea with words like cloned, tribute, dressed up firebird and all the other negitive slang used, where yes ill call it a "rebody" but only cause thats whats really needed, honestly being a painter for 20+ years i think it would be impractical to try to repair such a unique ride, what do you all think?????????

[texasdave]

Originally Posted by EARNED MY WINGS

Hello, new to this site and looking for some input. Heres my situation. 1971 purchased a lucerne blue 71 ta with correct motor and 4 speed ,non a/c car, pretty much complete minus a few items whic are easily availible, problem is the body is shot, and i mean shot. Im not new to the car sceen and restored my share of rides, this car is beyond repair due to rust. I could purchase every piece of sheetmetal available currently andwould still need to fab patches and pieces to finish, or.......................i got a line on a rock solid shell from a 1973 that dont need a bit of metal work and just a few doordings to fix for a complete transformation. I personally would rather have the good ol' generals sheetmetal and factory spotwelds rather than a pieced together part by part mig/spot welded that would take me years to do with my current family situation but my friends and family are leaning against my idea with words like cloned, tribute, dressed up firebird and all the other negitive slang used, where yes ill call it a "rebody" but only cause thats whats really needed, honestly being a painter for 20+ years i think it would be impractical to try to repair such a unique ride, what do you all think?????????

There are options, you could use the 73 shell and keep the 71 title and it would require a fraction of the welding required to patch together the 71 shell.

[poncho1961]

It gets into a gray area there. Its a common arguement on whether this is legal or ethical. To use the 73 body but use the 71 id tags. You may say you'll never part with the car, or that you'll notify the next owner of what you did, but what about after that. The guy who bought it from you decides to pass it off as a real complete 71. It could end up coming back to bite you. Only wise and ethical things to do are all the metal work and patching required to keep that cowl panel intact, or move everything over to the 73 and call it a clone/tribute/whatever, but retain the 73 body tags and not try to pass it off as an original 71 TA.

[texasdave]

Originally Posted by poncho1961

It gets into a gray area there. Its a common arguement on whether this is legal or ethical. To use the 73 body but use the 71 id tags. You may say you'll never part with the car, or that you'll notify the next owner of what you did, but what about after that. The guy who bought it from you decides to pass it off as a real complete 71. It could end up coming back to bite you. Only wise and ethical things to do are all the metal work and patching required to keep that cowl panel intact, or move everything over to the 73 and call it a clone/tribute/whatever, but retain the 73 body tags and not try to pass it off as an original 71 TA.

Or just cut the parts off the 73 to re-build the 71. Is it still original 71 with so many 73 body pieces?

Agreed, the only true without question way of doing this many hours of welding and custom fab.

Personally I have never transferred cowl tags, but given the right donor shell I can see the allure.

My 70 RS/SS was so bad I had considered that myself. But, fortunately those cars were made in such high quantities that finding a rolling shell to transfer the front end to was easier than I had originally thought.

[tweety]

I'm with Rick on this one. I can see your point that it's tempting to re-body, and a lot of guys do it, but in spite of all the arguments - it just isn't the same car. Myself, I ended up parting out a fairly rare Formula a few years back because the body was just too far gone to attempt redoing. Sometimes life sucks, lol.

[EARNED MY WINGS]

Still a tough call, of course we all say "ill never sell it", and im the king of that quote! i bought plenty of cars and said that and sure enough, 2-3 years later its gone! that could very well be the case with this car but this car is near the top of the food chain, it can get better but not by much! also, that kind of metal work can detour just about anyone once they are about 1/3rd into that type of project. poncho 1961 mentioned keeping the cowl panel intact and change whatever needed but guess what......the cowl/dash area is one of the worse areas on this car due to leaves and debris gathering in this area. i feel for a poor condition car like this a shell swap would be what this cars soul would want!!! keep the comments rolling, ill need a few to make up my mind on which way to go..............THANKS GUYS!!!

[EARNED MY WINGS]

texas dave, you know what im talking about, i looked( sat in,drove, etc.) at the car you purchased and altho its a cool ride, our michigan rust here will suck the desire out of any potential musclecar. are you considering swapping with the white shell you purchased for the 75? im looking to do the same with this car, i feel its the right thing to do but a bit of guilt got the best of me. as you mentioned its pretty rough from the wheel wells down, my car is that way top to bottom!! help me out dave!!!

[texasdave]

Originally Posted by EARNED MY WINGS

texas dave, you know what im talking about, i looked( sat in,drove, etc.) at the car you purchased and altho its a cool ride, our michigan rust here will suck the desire out of any potential musclecar. are you considering swapping with the white shell you purchased for the 75? im looking to do the same with this car, i feel its the right thing to do but a bit of guilt got the best of me. as you mentioned its pretty rough from the wheel wells down, my car is that way top to bottom!! help me out dave!!!

My deal is pretty straightforward.

I have wanted a 75 Trans Am since high school. I know there are more popular year models than the 75, but this one just has always had a special place for me. Maybe it's because I love the underdog, who knows.

I talked with Dan and he walked me thru the rust issues. For me it was a no brainer buy because the car was basically complete, sans the rusted areas. In my quest for a 75 project I had come across the shell in the photos. Basically completely straight and the only issues with rust are the floor pans. So between the complete rust mobile and the 75 shell (it is a Trans Am with title!) I have what I need to make the car I want.

I have always wanted to do a ground up anyway and this provides me the perfect sequence of events to do it. I'll get the floorboards in the shell repaired and the whole uni-body ready for re-assembly.

The front sub-frame is already at my buddies off road shop for powder coat. So now I am just to the point on deciding my suspension components for re-assembly. I hope to have the suspension completed under the donor shell by the end of summer. I was emailed about another shell that might be available much closer to me, one way or another the body issue will be figured out in the next week.

Let the fun begin.

[mrpontiac65]

You could and the DMV about body swapping, I did that years ago on a '64 GTO and the state came and riveted the '64's serial number to the car. I showed them the pictures of my '64 GTO that'd been totaled and the Lemans Body that everything wen into.

[mrpontiac65]

When you get done with it you don't want the state or the original owner of the donor body come and take your car. Better to have it legal than not at all!

[EARNED MY WINGS]

you got me there tx.dave, your doing a trans am swap to begin with so it dont matter, good for you, easy decision. nothing agaist 75s, as imentioned i went to check it out to purchase it myself, i have a 74 t/a as well and i get that flack from others too! actually i purchased the 71 for the drivetrain only until i did some research and found out what caliber of car it is to the collectors world. i always liked the 74-76 as well over all the others but ran into this 71 i couldnt pass up. 74-76 t/a's were really popular when i had my paper route in the late 70s early 80s, when i seen one, it stopped my schwinn stingray in its tracks to take a peek!!! does anybody know of any "sure" differences between the 71 and 73 body shells? that might convince me as well. how about between A/C firewalls and non-A/C firewalls? anybody???

[Sirrotica]

If I'm not mistaken removing VIN tags and swapping them to another body can land you in the federal slammer. I had a auto shop teacher years ago that took a section of door post and grafted it on another body, back then that's where the VIN tag was. I believe he had 2 trucks and the good one had no title and the other was junk but had a title. The truck was sold and someone started checking stuff and the state cops came and arrested him he made the local news and everything. I would be very cautious about doing this.

One other thing I found out also is that the rivets that hold the VIN tag on are of a special type and if your caught with those rivets in your possesion you can also go to jail. This bit of info came to me from a maitenance guy in a ford plant in Lorain Ohio. I was in there to work on a piece of equipment and somehow we were talking about how the cars were built and he told me that someone there took some of these special VIN tag rivets and got themselves in a whole lotta trouble.

Just make certain that your hobby doesn't take away your livelyhood is all I'm saying. Good luck in whatever you decide.

[KingBuzzo]

I can't see how you should carry the responsibility of the owner after next if you are going to be completely upfront about it.

We have to save as many of these cars (in as complete form) as we can to preserve the hobby.

The only question of ethics in my mind is if you are strictly sacrificing the '73 for '71 for the profit.

Anyway, if I ever have the time/$ to restore my '74, I may be in the exact same situation!

[poncho1961]

Originally Posted by KingBuzzo

I can't see how you should carry the responsibility of the owner after next if you are going to be completely upfront about it.!

You, being the guy who removed the vin and transfered it to the other car, carry the responsibility. Even being up front about what you did, which as has been pointed out, is illegal anyway. So you would probably be hesitant to point it out. The next owner may not care, may not turn you in, may likes the idea of making a huge profit when he sells, but you can bet he's gonna remember your name and give it out freely when the law comes back to him for selling a car with the tags moved. As far as preserving the rare car. You didn't really preserve a rare car. The rare car is gone and you preserved a 73 and dressed it as a 71, right down to the tags. In the end, when you think about it, the only reason you would do this, is for profit. The 71 isn't really a 71 anymore. No one cares that you made a 73 look like a 71 TA because you liked the looks. People care that you misrepresent a 73 as a 71 and did so because it was worth more. It boils down to money as the reason for doing it. I have a 71 Espirit. When it goes back together, I have every intention of dressing it up as a TA, because I like the looks. But it will still wear the Espirit VIN. There will be no question of what it is legally. No attempt to profit and claim its a real TA. Just an Espirit in wolfs clothing. My recommendation is to save the 73, add the 71s running gear, paint it like a 71, but leave the tags alone. No questions about your intentions, no worries about fraud.

[EARNED MY WINGS]

How would you go about replacing the upper cowls that they sell? this usually includes the dash piece which then includes the vin tag......a very common rust issue with these f-bodies. who in this real world would call police or any transportation bureau for permission? now where dipping into fantasy land with all these "what if's!" lets jump ship for a minute and call out the all so famous **** Cuda.......by now we all know for a fact that there are actually more **** Cudas registered today than there ever made in 70/71.....its a fact!! i by no means am a criminal and do this on a weekly basis, thats why im looking for help, but i still see no big deal in swapping shells to keep a awesome car on the road as mentioned in someones post. so far i think documenting a swap so noone is hiding nothing would be the best option, pictures of the original shell documented of rust, no frame rails, no trunk or braces, no lowerrear pan, the list goes on and on!!! i found it humorous the other day when i was inside the car checking out the underside of the dash, i looked up at the roof (minus the headliner) and could see the lighting in my garage like the stars in the sky at night!!!! the car is all original paint but the surface rust is SOOO heavy that you can actually see the light from above here and there!! such a sweet unique car, such a headache to fix this mess!!

[Sirrotica]

I guess you haven't heard of the cars this was done to that went through Barret Jackson and of the lawsuits and guys that thought they got away with swapping VIN tags on rare chevys and I believe as you just mentioned a **** Cuda. This was a big scandal and gave Barret Jackson a black eye for awhile. I don't know what the legal ramifications were but I know the car was bought back by the seller.

You do what you'd like but remember there are many places that the numbers are stamped into other parts of the car that the law knows about and where to find them. If these numbers don't match or are tampered with then the car is a reconstructed and will be issued a title and a special VIN plate from the state involved.

Switching VIN tags from 1 car to another isn't within the law and if you rebody it you will have to use the VIN plate for a reconstruction, not the original plate. You do what you want but if it were me I wouldn't risk jail time by trying to justify it as saving a classic.

BTW I have a 73 T/A that only has the cowl, floor pans and rear axle and springs that are original. The whole front clip roof subframe doors decklid and rear body panel and the filler from the rear panel to the trunk floor are eithe NOS parts or parts from another car. The key is I still have the original cowl and VIN and floors this is probably as much as you'd have to change so I have been there and done that on my own car.

Call the DMV in your state and explain what you want to do and I bet you they tell you it's not how it works. Ask the experts at the state I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last nite, so I might be full of it.....

[KingBuzzo]

oh well, sounds like a lost cause...

[poncho1961]

My point is that if you are "saving" a 71 by moving its tag to a 73, you are doing so for profit. Does the tag make the car faster? Does the tag make more people follow you when driving and give you thumbs up? Does the tag cure erectile dysfunction? If you answered yes to that one, you got bigger issues . Actually, I think you can see where I'm going. The correct answer to all of the above is no. So that leaves just one obvious yes. The only reason anyone would purposely move the tag from a more desireable car to a less desireable car is to profit at sale time. There is nothing wrong with painting a car to resemble something it is not, adding body pieces such as flares, spoiler, shaker hoods to clone a Trans Am. There is a problem when you take something to the next level and falisfy legal markings. To put it in perspective, if you had a title only for a 71 TA that you crushed 30 years ago and a machine that would copy VIN tags perfectly, would you be saving a 71 TA by making a new tag and putting it on your 73? So how is moving a real tag from one car to another any different? YOU"RE NOT SAVING A 71. You're doing something illegal. Justify it anyway you like, but its still wrong. Put yourself in the situation of laying out big dollars for a 71 TA, or a **** Cuda or anything else you really part with huge amounts of cash to get only to find out someone decieved you and its no different than the teenagers car in the driveway next door. An Sirrotica is right. There are places on the body that the VIN is stamped into sheet metal. It varied by year slightly, so you're gonna be cutting and welding pieces of that 71 in , in all kinds of places to keep your ass out of jail. In the imortal words of Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky?"

[hrtbt_1]

if you want the car to "stay' a 71, use the donor body, but cut it up and weld the good pieces into the shell of the 71, that way you are covered. You get to keep the 71, but you still use what you need off the 73, unless you can get the state to come out and re-vin the 73 body. That might be possible I dont know, but since you do have a complete 71 I would think they could do something.

[mrpontiac65]

You can always go the Bonded Title route for the car without a Title where you put up like $200. and an insurance company gives you a bond for $2000. You can't sell the car until the bond reaches maturity (so they get there money)Then you can sell it if you want.It's a little red tape to go thru but it worth it (unless the car in mention is stolen or money is owed but you can work around that, better than going to jail)I bought a '64GTO complete less aircleaner out of a junk yard years ago Auto,Air PS,PB,desent interior been setting for 10 years or so. The Title was junked and I applied at the court house for a Bonded Title got it and held on to the car for the 4 years or so,I can't remember for sure. The only problem is that if the Title is not junked you can't get a Bonded Title.But if you know somebody like a Sheriff that will run the Vin. number thru the system to see who it comes back too would give you a start. Not all cars are stolen some just get detached from their owner(abandoned,city hauls them off,repo,lost cause and sold it)